Lecture 3 Salvation: What is it?

[Nat]

Salvation is walking hand in hand with God and being led by His Spirit

How do we do that? That's the ten thousand dollar question of the day. And I've been praying about that a lot to. This is what God is showing me....
The answer lies not when things are going good, but when things are not so good. Have you ever seen something in the church and you ask why does God allow it to continue? Maybe its the conduct of the leadership your wondering about. Let's use that example because maybe one being over another is the biggest problem, or lack of relationship, another problem. Same solution. Maybe you've seen a spirit of religion, control, competitiveness, or jealousy. maybe idolatry. problems with the congregation. Another big problem. These are "people problems". Problems with lack of unity essentially. Some trust has to come into play....

If some one is not God's enemy, than they are not my enemy. If God is allowing something to continue than maybe it might be because that person is not His enemy, He's working with and through them. Now they may not be perfect, that's okay, who is. So the first thing to recognize is that we are not to judge but give the other person the benefit of the doubt. Allow for them the same we allow for ourselves, that we are just "under construction".  Then the next thing is to look at what we are building. All faults aside, yours and mine, what are we building together? 

Is what we are building something we've seeked the Holy Spirit's direction in? Was it bathed in prayer? Is everyone aware of the plans? Is the vision on the lips of everyone involved? We're not going to get this without making any mistakes, so again do we allow for others what we allow for ourselves? Do we allow them to make mistakes and not attach it to their character, or do we hold them accountable to a fault? That is do we hold them to a higher standard than we hold ourselves?

So the solution begins with looking at our own heart condition, are we fault finders, judging others harshly and operate outside of love?

Now if the person in question is an enemy of God, don't you think He might do something about it? We have another issue of trust involved. Do we trust God to perserve the Body- the church- like He promised?  Will He preserve a remant? When it looks like He hasn't I assure He has. That's what He does.

I think salvation and walking together led by the Spirit is the same thing as being about my Fathers business, same concept different vocabulary. So being about His business would include not judging others, loving them, and assuming they are a part of the remnant He is preserving for His church, And seeking restoration. Seeking restoration so we have more time before His return to reach even more and multiply the remnant until the full number of gentiles has come in and Israel is restored. Does that make sense?

[China39]

Salvation is walking hand in hand with God and being led by His Spirit

I think salvation and walking together led by the Spirit is the same thing as being about my Fathers business, same concept different vocabulary. So being about His business would include not judging others, loving them, and assuming they are a part of the remnant He is preserving for His church, And seeking restoration. Seeking restoration so we have more time before His return to reach even more and multiply the remnant until the full number of gentiles has come in and Israel is restored. Does that make sense?

Yes Nat, it makes a whole lot of sense.

I wonder what will happen if the the Body comes together on one accord concerning salvation...

[Dr Jl Williams]

Dr. Williams, I have been pondering your statement that church buildings often become extensions of self.  I think there's a whole lot of truth in that statement, unfortunately.  I find myself getting very discouraged when I deal with organized religion.  More than once lately I have said, "This is not what Jesus intended for the church".  On the other hand I realize He created us for community.  I guess I want to deal with the body of Christ and not the organized church.  To me there is a BIG difference.  How do I do that?

OK, well does the community or lets say God's people need a building to have community? Right here in this forum we have community and probably better community than in many churches, because in most churches its a one way conversation. Here at least there is two sharing of concepts and experience. If a church build is reaching out and serving the community, such as those that are hungry or needing shelter, that would seem to be a great reason to have a building or perhaps a school where training is going on in how to walk in ones calling or equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. BUT, when the building keeps us from helping others, then one probably should look at why?

Our motive should be out of love. But do we need a building to love and care for others? Either way in building or not building a building we get to be accountable. We are to build each other up and if that is happening while having a building, then there probably is a lot of grace.

Does one need a building to be a pastor or apostle or prophet or evangelist or even a teacher or rabbi? I grew up in a small town outside of the city of Milwaukee Wisconsin. I called the church to see how people were doing and they still believe that their way of reaching out to the community was by having a building. In their minds love was having people in for services. I suggested that when I was there, that didn't work so good and probably it still is not working good. In their lives, the building was more important than the people.

I know it happens often and that is the sad part. A building is not going to save anyone in the end, but will save on is love one for the other. I guess what I see is humorous is that people preach that all of the stuff is temporary and all for the most part agree that it is about relationships, but then go out and build buildings instead of relationships. I know they think they are building relationships, but their rules (not written rules, but how they live their lives) seem to suggest that in order to build a relationship, then one will come to their church building.

The problem with that is it becomes and excuse not to know people better. Yes they get to see people in the church building, but do they really get to know them that way? No. What it takes is being willing to walk with each other. The church had services 4 times a week. Now services are wonderful, but it is one way communication except maybe for a couple of minutes before or after the service, but that really doesn't allow for people to get to know one another. Doing things that way, keeps people from getting to know one another. A friend would be interested in what your doing not just in the church building, but in life. It's almost like people have this life in going to a church and that is separate from their family life and that is separate from their work life and maybe even separate from friends they may know from work, leading all these different lives.

To be in ministry takes a lot of time and effort and an extreme amount of focus. When one is in ministry, there really isn't much time for anything. I know that sounds terrible to say, but it takes a lot to be in ministry to do anything. Lets just take one small area of ministry which might be going to a prison. Well if they come in with the concept it is only about preaching at people, then relationships are not built. Preaching at people does not take that much time. What does take the time, is to build the relationship with people and being willing to walk with them.

So the question is, "is it about building relationships or is it about just being busy in life?" Now granted most would say its about building relationships but in all honesty if one is not spending time doing that then they really don't believe it or maybe don't know that it takes time to walk with people.

Some will allow relationships if one person always calls on the other, but if they have to call equally then the relationship falls apart. RELATIONSHIPS ARE A TWO WAY STREET. However what the church teaches by actions, is that it is a one way street in preaching at people. I don't know how to put that in a better way. What people learn from one another is by what they do. Do they take the time to walk with others or is it one sided or just when you need something? WOW that sounds more like building toxic relationships and honestly who wants that?

What does it take to be a friend of God? Well, it takes spending time with Him. Dah........ What does it take to build relationship with each other? Dah......... it takes time in a two way thing. It is the same with God as it is with people. However the perception is that having a relationship with God is a one way street and if thats all a person sees out of it, then it becomes a think where one is over the other.

Like for example, "how many people pray to God asking for stuff, instead of just spending time with God?" What God wants is for us to spend time with Him and guess what, "He will spend time with you." But if all a person sees is that its about just asking for stuff, then that is sort of the kind of relationship one probably has with others. That is how much of leadership is in the church that does not have the five fold gift ministry, which when its all one sided, misses the point of it all.

Bottom line seems to be that the better a relationship that a person has with God and people, the less the building is needed. One does not need a building to have a relationship, what one needs is a condition of the heart to have a relationship.

Just like the question in how people perceive things, "is the church a building or the body of Christ, and it is not just a verbal answer, but how one lives their lives." It is one thing to say its about building relationships and yet if the time is spent in building a building, then one really doesn't believe it is about building relationships. In a building it is always a thing where one is over the other, because one does more for the building than the other and if that happens then people are impressed by the wrong things in life.

[Nat]

So the first thing to recognize is that we are not to judge but give the other person the benefit of the doubt. Allow for them the same we allow for ourselves, that we are just "under construction".  Then the next thing is to look at what we are building. All faults aside, yours and mine, what are we building together?

Just wanted to add that I said we needed to look at what we are building together, and didn't mention a building

Either way in building or not building a building we get to be accountable. We are to build each other up and if that is happening while having a building, then there probably is a lot of grace.

Now ain't that where the rubber hits the pavement.

[TatertotAK]

Salvation. Even saying that word brings a sense of awe to my heart and mind. We can be saved from a fire in our home. we can be saved from an incident of near death, we can be saved from falling down a long flight of stairs by grasping the hand rail provided to protect us.I feel that my salvation, personally, is very close to that. I knew the situation called me unto action to reach out and accept what is presented to me, a gift I could not gives away, that I was unworthy of receiving. There is NO NAME other than His that saved me.

By submitting to the God of my salvation and then to His body in order to glorify Him, I am walking with Him. Had I NOT responded to His voice and call, I would still be walking in darkness.
I must TRUST Him to give to me a special task, just for me and for me alone. He saved me and He has a plan for me. When we experience that and yield to that, we can do great and mighty things in  and for Him. Serving others and loving others because of our great salvation experience becomes foremost and easy.

I hear God through prayer and through His Word. He will make a way for me every step of the way. Does that mean I wish to be lead by Him....YES!! If His direction is forward, I am ready...if His direction is rest and wait, I shall. He never makes me wonder what He wants, only that I wait and listen.

Sometimes we have rough days, days of struggle, days of hurt. During those days, we ponder WHY...I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. I want to stay close to Him. I want Him to guide, bless and comfort me. I can expect that because HE SAVED ME.

In getting rid of the junk, as Dr Williams says, we "unload" and shed great burdens, great hindrances and our own great expectations for those of a loving, kind and patient God. He has to use us as we are open to being used and He needs us to be available without being loaded down with junk.
We strive to produce fruit which is good fruit. Who wants anything else, but to be producing something that will build the body (such as with ODB).The spiritual covering feels warm, feels sufficient.

Lead. Overcome. Endure. Grown in good soil, nurtured, watered and then have a time of being pruned. Then as so beautifully stated, the good fruit is evident.
Being lead and guided by God ...we can ell it is HIS leading by seeking His Word, prayerfully covering what we need to do and where the glory goes.

Beliefs are tested here and we wait for confirmation and for TRUTH to be victorious in every encounter. We may not even ever see that, but God does, and that is what is important.

Let us walk together in AGREEMENT. Let us be bold and let us approach Him with that Godly fear and humility. Let us never tire of doing good, of seeing through loving, patient eyes.
Let us do His will with all power and authority!
Thank you for this Lecture, what an inspiration to all who are blessed to read it.

[Dr Jl Williams]

Lead. Overcome. Endure. Grown in good soil, nurtured, watered and then have a time of being pruned. Then as so beautifully stated, the good fruit is evident.

I wanted to add that we are when we get to a point also the soil that when the seed is sown into us and we are also one of the reasons why others make it or not. It is a test for us to be the soil for others which certainly explains why Paul prayed in travail for those that God sent to him. Travail being like child birth and we are the spiritual parents of the ones God sends to us. So we are either rocky or fertile soil or somewhere in between.

The whole concept is that we be fertile soil to others so they can grow to produce good fruit.

It certainly adds another level into the works.

What kind of soil are we? That is to any and all.

[Salem Ministries]

I am confused... Is ODBM saying that in order to be saved there are things other than believing in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Last time I checked the scripture there was only one requirement for salvation. The definition you gave to salvation is more of a definition for santification as a continuing process. I will agree though that salvation is free, but the relationship with the Father cost everything.
Minister Walter

What is being said is each student needs a clear cut and usable answer for what salvation is and what it is not so we can be a witness, which means we have witnessed something other than just a belief. What have we personally witnessed? Those are the things we should share with other, believers and non believers.

Much of what is said here is to prompt a response and focused on what you believe and why you personally believe it? What do people believe? Is it working? If not, what is not working and how does one fix it?

I believe allowing God to take the leading process in our live is very important so If the issue of salvation is not well understand in the begining of our work with God ,we can't make it .I also understand that salvation what happen I was save will reflect in my relationship with God .

[Dr Jl Williams]

I am confused... Is ODBM saying that in order to be saved there are things other than believing in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Last time I checked the scripture there was only one requirement for salvation. The definition you gave to salvation is more of a definition for santification as a continuing process. I will agree though that salvation is free, but the relationship with the Father cost everything.
Minister Walter

What is being said is each student needs a clear cut and usable answer for what salvation is and what it is not so we can be a witness, which means we have witnessed something other than just a belief. What have we personally witnessed? Those are the things we should share with other, believers and non believers.

Much of what is said here is to prompt a response and focused on what you believe and why you personally believe it? What do people believe? Is it working? If not, what is not working and how does one fix it?

I believe allowing God to take the leading process in our live is very important so If the issue of salvation is not well understand in the begining of our work with God ,we can't make it .I also understand that salvation what happen I was save will reflect in my relationship with God .

The point of this exercise is not just to throw out a definition of salvation, but to pause, thinking that we are going to be held accountable for what we teach or speak to people, not just about salvation or what we think it is, but everything we teach or even tell people in passing. In other words it is like we put our lives on the line for what we teach others. You may think that doc Williams is out to lunch and you might be right, but the object of the lesson is to be more like Jesus. OK whats the point? Jesus gave His life for what He taught. Are we willing to put our lives on the line?

Today we have all sorts of teachers, even on TV or cable. What does it mean when a prophet is in error? What does it mean if a teacher is in error or how about Pastor or counselor? What does this mean? Grace doctrine teaches one does the best one can and if your wrong we all have to excuse the error.

How many actually put it on the line and tell people they are sent from God and represent the love and will of God? That is what Paul and the rest were about, so How come we don't have to be like that? Ever wonder?

If you think your any different than John or James or Paul you have bought into the deception. I said all of this to exhort each one to seek God for His definition of what salvation is and then speak that. That holds true for all of us. It is not just about one person in what the do. We all have examine ourselves to see where we are in the scope of things. 

[drichardson]

Salvation is the acceptance of the blood sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross. It's through this acceptance & repentance (of our sins) that we are purified and redeemed back into right relationship with God. For the sole purpose of taken on the identity of Christ and forsaking our will for "His".

"But God commanded His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"That is you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

[Tish Rothenbach]

[
I understand your question here Minister Walter, I believed the same thing and was taught the same thing. That Christ is the ONLY thing we need for salvation. While that is true people get caught up in the "Once saved, always saved" thinking. The trouble with that is when we live in that believe we forget to "work" at our realtionship with God. You are right in the Nazarene World the defintion is more of the "santification" process and that is something that is left out of our relationship with God. Salvation is given once we confess with our lips and our hearts that we are sinnners. Repent from our sin, and ask God for forgiveness. We are then granted and welcomed into our salvation but it doesn't end there it is only the beginning. That is where I feel we as ministers need to lead our people. Not to just salvation but to a RELATIONSHIP a personal one with our Heavenly Father.

[Tish Rothenbach]

Salvation is walking hand in hand with God and being led by His Spirit

This wasn't a hard concept for me to grasp when I learned 3 years ago that my "once saved always saved" mind set wasn't true. I had lost my way and desperaltly needed to learn to walk hand in hand with God and ALLOW Him to lead me. He lead me and continues to do so. Today My life is totally different than what I thought it would have been 2 years ago. I was the prayer pastor, a locally licensed pastor in Virginia studing for Ordination when all of sudden within 3 weeks in September 2009, our family was literally transplanted to Long Island NY. The ministry stopped. Or so I thought. I knew God was leading us here, it was VERY evdient and the sense of peace never has left as I KNOW that the Spirit lede us here. Seeking Ordination with the Nazarene Church doesn't seem to be the "ulitmate" plan. Now a new direction is being paved and although I believe it is uncertain, I trust God and am walking hand in hand with Him. Being led by the Spirit I have learned that our paths may take a different turn but the VISION that God planted in my heart hasn't changed, just the means as to HOW to get there is different than I had orginally thought, but God knew all along, this is HIS plan and I walk with Him trusing the entire way.

[TD Allen]

I think that salvation is two fold.  First, as several of you have mentioned, Romans 10:9 tells us "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."  As it should be, Jesus (in believing in Hm and accepting Him as our Lord and Savior) comes first.  The answer to every question is Jesus.  To truly be saved I believe that we must respond to the movement of the Holy Spirit and move into to Romans 10:9.  This is only the beginning.

Secondly, once we have accepted Jesus and decided to follow Him, we inherit an awesome responsibility.  Every single one of us that have received Christ into our hearts, not just those called into the ministry, are called to be all things to all people so that others may be saved.  The more I pray and study, the more I know that 5-fold ministry is for all believers and that we are called to use it.  There is no being on the team and sitting on the bench or standing on the sideline.  We have the most amazing gift of all, and we are called to go out and share that with others so that they may receive the same gift as well.  James 2:20 tells us that faith without works is dead.  We simply cannot just believe.  We must witness to the lost and then be their preacher and teacher to water them and help them grow to the point to where they begin to bare the same good fruit.

Again, being saved is only the beginning.  We must then take up our cross and follow the guidance of the Holy Ghost.  God's has a plan for us all.  Part of salvation is listening to His voice and living out that plan.  We are in the game.

[Dr Jl Williams]

The only thing I am attempting to make clear is does the salvation message include accepting "just Jesus" or does it include the body of Christ?

We tend in the church like to think that the body is separate. In other words we like to tell people to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, means just accepting Jesus. So the question is does one need to accept the body of Christ to be saved?

There is the rather large teaching that it is "just me and Jesus." Me and Jesus can do all things. Ok it says we can do all thing through Christ, but are we accepting that we meaning "Jesus the head of the body of Christ and we being the body of Christ." The scripture takes on a totally new concept when we include the body of Christ.

A wind of doctrine would be to exclude the body of Christ?

So, when a person accepts Christ do they need to accept the body as well to be really saved?

Why is this important? Because each of the students are called to represent the truth. If we are not sure of the truth it it is important to find the truth. So do we know for sure that when the scripture says to be saved that we are to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is only talking about Jesus and the scripture is excluding Jesus?

Scripture tells us that we are to test the spirits.

Most seem to feel that when we accept Christ it is only accepting Jesus, which allows us to love Jesus and not the body of Christ or at least are able to love the body less than Jesus.

If one does not accept the body in the accepting, then one can abandon members of the body and often do.

The truth sets us free, well that is if we have it to start with?

The importance one way or the other.

Should we teach and preach that what is required for salvation is to accept "just", it will take us down a path and it will will also take those we teach down the same path.

On the other hand if we teach that Christ has two parts and one cannot accept one without the other, then we will be going down a different path as well as those we teach.

In the OT it was salvation to go down the right path. In the NT is it required to go down the correct path?  

We are responsible to God for what we teach or what we share with others. Are both equally true? Does it matter? One thing is for sure, at the end we get to stand before God and give an account. At that point it is too late. Today, we have an opportunity to do something different and it would be wisdom to seek God for the truth.

How we test the spirits and the teaching is by following both paths to see where they lead. If the path does not lead to love, unconditional love then it is likely the wrong path. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Everyone seems to know that, but then when we do not take care of those in the body or are willing to walk with each other in the body, how correct is our love? Is it OK to ignore the needs of those in the body? Is it OK to judge? If it is not OK then why does it happen so much of the time?

"Winds of Doctrine"

Winds of doctrine take us down a path we probably should not go. That is bad enough on its own, but it is worse when we take others down those paths that are not good.

Winds of doctrine create beliefs that we hold as truth and those beliefs spoken send us in a direction in life, but does that path or belief take us in the right direction which is what salvation is, or does it send us down a path to destruction, but is that also salvation?

[Ahava]

If we accept "just Jesus", we are in effect decapitating Him.  We end up with a bodyless head...  How then will His work be accomplished on this earth without His body working in conjunction with His head?